2005-01-12 - 5:35 p.m.

applied ecumenics

(myself) says:
Fh.Tj says: hey im on
(myself) says: cool http://gewerq.diaryland.com/
(myself) says:
Fh.Tj says: hold on im reading
(myself) says: ok
(myself) says: i'm away to get dinner
(myself) says: back
Fh.Tj says: hey pretty honest stuff on ur site
(myself) says: yeah
Fh.Tj says: you write heaps over the years then?
(myself) says: yeah since about 2 years
Fh.Tj says: its well written, obviously inspired
(myself) says: thanks
Fh.Tj says: what do you feel like your gift is?
(myself) says: i dont know
Fh.Tj says: writing is one mate
(myself) says: yeah i have a pretty wide vocabulary i guess
Fh.Tj says: i like ur consideration of everyones view even if it feels like ur judging others
Fh.Tj says: did u get to read that book i left the other day?
(myself) says: thanks
(myself) says: yes
(myself) says: if you have time read this (etc)
Fh.Tj says: what did u think?
(myself) says: well its complicated
(myself) says: that link is what one person thinks its not that everyone thinks i am considerate! ("them" refers to me on that page)
(myself) says: the author paints a picture of pentecostal church heirarchy that appreciated reformed history and doctrines refined over centuries which is certainly not the case for hillsong or any pentecostal church i have been in , maybe it is the case in england but not here
(myself) says: his main thesis though is that "baptism in the holy spirit" is not the same as receiving the spirit, it is subsequent and makes you a "more capable" christian, and that this belief is compatible with calvinism (what he calls "reformed"), and he has not in the book tried to back either claim up, but rather show that pentecostals are not as arminianist/pelagianist as they seem and i see nothing to suggest that either but again maybe in england things are different
Fh.Tj says: are you talking about the author of the book or the article
Fh.Tj says: i assume the book
(myself) says: the book
(myself) says: yes
Fh.Tj says: this guy martyn lloyd Jones was not pentecostal and in fact was an evangelical in the english church. he is heaps well respected and i would say that, although this is only coming from asking Ph.P, that your church would respect his views. They would not know that he believed this about the difference of baptism and the recieving of the spirit though
(myself) says: well that is the whole point of the book so i am surprised
Fh.Tj says: i feel like the evangelical church and the pentecostal church are like trying to run towards the same goal but on different roads so as not to be associating with each other
Fh.Tj says: it would be cool for everyone to forgive each other but i guess the only way this could happen is through prayer and from god
(myself) says: i know where you are coming from i believed so as well when i went to a pentecostal church
(myself) says: http://www.livingroom.org.au/cgi-bin... there is a lot on that site
(myself) says: in some respects we want the same thing ie. we both hold jesus as god and want to see people follow him
Fh.Tj says: yeah it so seems, i still remember that sermon form Ph.B at church when he said that gunmen walked into a church in usa and asked anyone not willing to take a bullet for jesud to leave and almost everyone left. i know there is some real christians in that centre last nite amidst the hype, and there is some real christians there at our church.
Fh.Tj says: lots go to pentecostal church cause it makes them feel comfort but i see heaps going to our church cause it makes them feel comfort
Fh.Tj says: do you think its kind of similar in that there is people at both churches seeking to live a comfortable existence in which they 'feel' good about themselves
Fh.Tj says: ?
Fh.Tj says: this 'feel' is obviously brought on in different ways
(myself) says: that is true but that doesn't mean that a church is right or wrong,
(myself) says: that's why we must examine carefully each doctrine that is presented to us
(myself) says: http://dtl.org/calvinism/e-mails/word-faith/pt-1.htm this site explains in great detail the difference between pentecostal belief in salvation and a biblical belief
(myself) says: there is a lot to talk about, it is a very complex issue
Fh.Tj says: thats for sure
(myself) says: its important to get to the bottom, what's really important
(myself) says: i believe that jesus died in my place on the cross and nothing i have or could do could earn that, not even "making a decision" for christ
(myself) says: here's just one example: see on the (etc) site where she says "it's taken straight from 2 Kings", keep in mind she has actually studied at hillsong bible college, they actually believe that an old testament verse can be taken out of context to refer to the present day working of the holy spirit in our individual lives, money is just one area where this total lack of process in exegesis occurs, and it has been abused by brian houston to amass great wealth (see the SMH article on the living room site about 2/3 the way down)
(myself) says: you have to go to a pentecostal church for a good period of time to get what it's like, if the pastor takes any verse, applies it to an individual, you have to believe exactly what he says
(myself) says: money is one area where this is abused, another is healing so if someone is not healed, rather than giving them support, you can blame them for not having enough faith
Fh.Tj says: its heaps interesting reading your stuff mate. I have never been to a pentecostal church for any extended time but i have been going to an evangelical church for 5 or so years. I see your frustration when you start talking about these pentecostal churches cause you dont like hurting others, i guess i have felt the same as you recently but in relation to evangelical circles and
Fh.Tj says: the lack of emotions sometimes from people around.
Fh.Tj says: as well as some beliefs especially in what soem at church believe on these healing issues and the issue as to whether or not th acts of the apostles was only for the period of timewhen the church was 'being established'
(myself) says: i understand that lack of emotions is an issue at my church and that is a main reason why i was attracted to pentecostal churches, but after you are going for a year or so you ask yourself if its "real" emotions, i.e., if, in our anglo-australian culture, we don't show a lot of emotion in normal conversation, but when we go to church we are all of a sudden expressive, then the emotions are necessarily fake. It might be fine for church in nigeria or brazil, but not australia
(myself) says: as for the authority of the apostles continuing to all believers, it is completely possible to believe in the continuing authority of the believer and not be an arminianist (although i do not), however, i don't know of any church that is not cessationist (ie. believes in continuing miracles as a result of the believer's authority and not simply because God is sovereign), but does not also have major problems in their methods of exegesis accross a vast range of doctrines
Fh.Tj says: hey we have a home church bible study which is not pentecostal. its just christian. it would be rad if you could come sometime. its like just a few pple like my parents and some friends
(myself) says: ok i would like to come
Fh.Tj says: we have dinner before and your most welcome to come around for that. but ill talk to u at church
Fh.Tj says: it would be rad
(myself) says: ok cool
(myself) says: are you working tomorrow
Fh.Tj says: yeah, ive got another party n then catching up with a mate that moved away earlier on so pretty busy,
Fh.Tj says: thats cool
Fh.Tj says: ill talk to u then i have to go sorry
(myself) says: ok see you tomorrow
Fh.Tj says: rad talking, u have wisdom that is only from our Lord. its a gift obviously
(myself) says: not especially just that i have been a christian for 9 years and have gone to a lot of churches
Fh.Tj says: c u tomorrow
(myself) says: ok c u tomorrow

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